Tom Plumadore @tom200

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George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

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Omkar @omkard.ui

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qazim rama @qazimrama

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Frank Rietta @rietta

Remember that tonight's ATLRUG is a special workshop going from 4:30 to 6:30. Still at Pivotal Labs at Ponce City Market.

Wayne Chang @wc

what is ATLRUG

oh ruby

Frank Rietta @rietta

Yup.

I'm one of the co-organizers.

Donny Gabai @mrdgabai

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Jeffrey Broussard @jeffrey

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Tonee Young @twoesplease

@rietta I shall be there

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

Anyone ever do pair programming? Do it for a long time? Did it work out, or did you have to give it up at some point?

Lev Kin @leon21j

pair programming is the biggest waste of time

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

Did you do it?

Lev Kin @leon21j

i tried

and banned it

James Hernandez @j-hernandez

never tried it. filed next to "farting in the shower" in the "good_in_theory_not_in_practice" directory

although i have heard good things about it.

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

You're echoing my thoughts, but if you were staring at a job that mandated it, I'm looking to see does anyone have a good experience with it? I hate to be immediately cynical.

Danny Hurley @dphurley

I’ve paired in both mandatory and voluntary situations.

When it works, it works really well. The important part is that you build teams that can pair well.

unlrn @unlrn

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Danny Hurley @dphurley

I’ve worked with fantastic developers who simply couldn’t play nice with others and didn’t work out well on teams that paired.

I’ve also worked on teams where there was an unspoken rule that two people just didn’t ever pair.

TLDR: Try it out on a brand new team and bring in new folks that can do it well. Don’t force people into it, that simply won’t work.

Tobyn Baugher @tobyn

i think it's hard for us, as programmers, to notice the increased knowledge transfer and benefit of having a second set of eyes on everything we're doing as we do it, relative to the inconvenience of it

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

Pair programming is fantastic and (for certain kinds of work) can produce better work faster than two people working separately. I'm not sure I'd like to do it 40 hours a week, but it's a great tool to be good at.

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

inconvenience: can't personalize your shortcuts, no personal messages, no personal "lemme go down a YouTube hole for 10 minutes...

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

(as an introvert, I don't personally enjoy it . . . but there's a lot of value to be had in it)

Tobyn Baugher @tobyn

well, i mean, i pretty much can't use Vim when i pair

Danny Hurley @dphurley

I feel like it’s hard to argue with the Uncle Bob logic (heavily paraphrased): If you ask for a second set of eyes when you are in crisis mode, it’s because you believe that’s a more powerful way to program. If you believe it’s a more powerful way to program, why not do it all the time?

Aside from the emotional / interpersonal aspects, it is more effective. Fewer typos, immediate knowledge transfer, software design by committee…

What I’ve done on pairing teams re: shortcuts is just create a machine set-up script with a specific set of shortcuts / bash aliases and installed that set-up on every “pairing station.”

No one on the team had a laptop, only desktops that were identical and shared by all devs.

Given a week of everyone using the same shortcuts, everyone was back up to speed and we could hop around any computer.

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

His logic falls down a bit when you remove the assumption that there's a universal, objective "better" or "worse" way to program, but in a narrow set of contexts it's really high value.

Danny Hurley @dphurley

I actually think he’s leaving it up to you to decide if you believe it’s better.

He’s saying “if you ask for help when in crisis mode, you’re admitting you think it’s better.”

That’s how I read it at least. ymmv

Tobyn Baugher @tobyn

that really doesn't follow

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

OK, anyone do it fulltime for a year?

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

Yes, that's how I read it, too, but the implicit assumption is that there's a "better" and a "worse" that applies universally to crisis situations and to standard programming

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

I'm not throwing a hypothetical - there's a job that does this all the time. It's not a choice. Just curious if it's worked or been more stressful than the added value

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

The only (currently extant) company I know of that does that is Pivotal.

Danny Hurley @dphurley

I did it full-time for about 18 months. On the fence as to whether I’d immediately go back to it but I am bought in when the team makeup is right.

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

makes sense

Danny Hurley @dphurley

The Home Depot does a lot of pairing as well.

Tobyn Baugher @tobyn

i did it full time for a little less than a year. it was a good experience, but there's a cost

Danny Hurley @dphurley

I paired at both companies.

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

Pivotal does a really good job of hiring the kind of people who are good at (and enjoy) pairing.

Danny Hurley @dphurley

Pivotal / Home Depot, that is.

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

Yeah, HD is the context I'm looking at

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

Oh, I didn't realize HD was full-time pairing! That's good info to have.

Danny Hurley @dphurley

Depends on the team, but a lot of teams are.

George Kovats @kovatsgeorge

It's some teams, too big a company for everyone to work the same

Danny Hurley @dphurley

@kovatsgeorge feel free to DM me if you have any more specific questions about HD pairing. I worked on 3 or 4 teams that paired full-time there.

Mitchell Hamilton @mitchell.hunter.hamil

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cecili reid @creid

What are some good blogs for developers?

Michael Langford @mj_langford

@cried I think patio11 does the "business of development" side of things very well

He's got Kal

http://www.kalzumeus.com/archive/

Kalzemeus software as the name of the blog, although he now works for stripe

cecili reid @creid

He doesn't seem very active.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Nelum Samaradiwakara @nelumsam

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Shae Erisson @shapr

@creid any particular focus?

@mj_langford lunch again soon?

cecili reid @creid

@shapr Anything to assure my boredom in down time at work, will help me become a better programmer (past job Ruby on rails/current job Java), will help me learn (data science, Android, node, angular, swift), and will expose me to new tech I would not otherwise have known about.

Shae Erisson @shapr

in that case, I like hacker news and lobste.rs

lobste.rs has tags, so you get to choose your flavor: https://lobste.rs/t/haskell

cecili reid @creid

Hacker new through ycombinator?

Shae Erisson @shapr

yes, that one

I also recommend checking meetup.com for something free near you.

cecili reid @creid

I'm inundated with meetups already. Was looking specifically for things I can read and do while at work. I can read all the things but can't attend all the meetups. Thanks @shapr for the suggestions

Shae Erisson @shapr

:slightly_smiling_face:

Pete Holiday @toomuchpete

@creid Not a blog, but I subscribe to the hacker newsletter, which collects the best posts from HackerNews every week and sends them to you in an email so you don't have to read HN: http://www.hackernewsletter.com/

I keep it in my inbox and read through it when I need a change of pace.

cecili reid @creid

Thanks @toomuchpete

Jeff Ammons @jeffa00

@kovatsgeorge I think we've all done it from time to time, even before someone gave two programmers working together on a problem a name... For me it's fine when there is a tough problem that requires two minds to noodle it out, but the concept of pairing as the way to do ALL coding seems unpalatable. This one falls under the "to each his or her own" category for me. Make it mandatory and you've lost me.

@dphurley I believe a defibrillator is great in a crisis, but I wouldn't want one used on me every day. :wink:

Tobyn Baugher @tobyn

if i had to make a definitive statement about pair programming, i'd say that you're trading the productivity of two programmers for the average of both of their productivity and a bunch of side benefits

the problem is that i don't think there's any way to quantify the side benefits, short of some kind of meta-analysis of a bunch of projects