Zach Pate @zp6827

This person sounds like a huge asshole with a power trip and a chip on their shoulder. I’ve been there, certainly hoping you can get out of there ASAP. Best of luck.

Bob Elwell @robert.elwell

Yeah, I hear you get put through the ringer on this job a lot. Maybe time to start looking around?

Erik Olson @erkolson

Your boss sounds awful

Tanya Mott @tmott13

yeah it's been more than a hell week - very emotional - he's never said that kind of language to me before - I had a meeting last week with him and upper management - we agreed on the wfh to give me more time to work - now things are turning for the worse. it's probably best to leave at this point - I don't feel valued or trusted anymore

Bob Elwell @robert.elwell

it's probably also worth considering that if y'all are under an absurd crunch this guy just doesn't know how to manage under pressure

not that that's a good excuse, but it might give you some solace if it's not really a you thing

Tanya Mott @tmott13

yeah my partner and I got a late start cause we finished the previous project late - but the timeline on it wasn't right to begin with - now it's like 2 projects back to back are late and management dictated the deadlines for both

I feel like I'm gonna end of getting fired if I don't leave soon

Erik Olson @erkolson

Huh... are you given any input on estimating how long it will take to accomplish these projects?

Ty Walker @walker.ty.a

Yeah @tmott13 it’s time to go, cause that’s ridiculous

Tanya Mott @tmott13

the current one we are working on now - we had zero say on - it had to be done to get the client to sign the contract

now they have the url and testing it all while we are still finishing up on it

so bugs are coming in as well

Josh @joshuawheeler0

Holy shit @tmott13 sounds like my last job. Everyone could work from home I'd need be including one or two in different states who worked from home all the time but when I needed to because my kid was sick it was a problem. Definitely find a new job

Tanya Mott @tmott13

yeah I've been there over 2 yrs and this is the most challenging time I've had there and when I'm having a hard time, shit gets real.

like damn I was on a pretty good streak

couldn't imagine if I had a spouse or kids or both - this job has compromised my personal life during the week

Erik Olson @erkolson

This is why IT needs unions. A lot of businesses will abuse and burn people out if they can get away with it. Not letting individual contributors estimate their own work is a huge red flag

Tanya Mott @tmott13

we used to estimate hours until our PM left a year ago and they haven't re-hired anyone

and ship has been sinking ever since but I agree on having unions

many years ago I was training for a marathon all while working and performing well - I had work/home balance

jorn knuttila @jorn

That sounds like the kind of place that can be told “a two week notice is a privilege, not a right” and then you walk.

Jerald Sheets @cvquesty

The last thing SysAdmin needs is unions. We do have a league of professionals, but we realized long ago (back when we were SAGE) that word gets around about toxic bosses. How many people in Atlanta, for instance can’t tell from online ads that Home Depot used to chew people up and spit them out on a fairly regular basis? For all it’s nearly 6 million people, we are aware of all the idiosyncracies of the employers in ATL, who is toxic, who has decent policies, etc. no amount of unionizing (this is an at will state) will significantly correct what we see, but letting them twist with an open role while we talk about how bad they are on forums just like this one will eventually change the culture around those companies. Brave recruiters (few and far between) will let them know what’s going on.

Zachary Sarver @zsarver

So, anyone else almost drown on the way to work?

Erik Olson @erkolson

My question is, why do we have to put up with any work environments that "chew people up and spit them out". For a lot of people and at a lot of times leaving and finding a new job is not an immediate option, so suffering through an abusive environment is the only option. I don't think it is acceptable for any person to have to deal with that, regardless of seniority/experience/performance/etc. You say no amount of unionization will significantly correct these places and I think that is just wrong. Unionization won't make every place a dream but it will make it impossible for bosses to impose insane deadlines that force people to work nights and weekends to make up for stupid promises, or $60k differences in pay between a black woman and a white man doing the same job. (just 2 examples shared here in the last 24 hours!)

John Corry @jcorry

I haven’t seen any great examples of unionization of industries that I would want to revisit on the industry I work in…

maybe we’re smart enough to do it better than it’s been done?

labor needs enough organization to have a little power…

Erik Olson @erkolson

We've got decades of fear mongering in regards to unions and policies to limit them, but hollywood comes to mind

John Corry @jcorry

the problem is that a little power always leads to seeking more and more

Erik Olson @erkolson

that argument works both ways :slightly_smiling_face:

there will always be a struggle

John Corry @jcorry

yah, so…some stratification in the job market is healthy though

some jobs are better than others…some employees are better than others

Erik Olson @erkolson

the question, will individuals be able to bargain for a better deal for themselves all on their own, or collectively? For some individuals, the answer will be yes, on their own

i've worked in a lot of places and worked with a lot of people of different abilities and almost every single person who disappointed me was acting rationally in a crappy system :man-shrugging:

A culture of growth and learning can fix a lot of "bad employees"

Dan Nicodemo @danodemo

I know about 20 Union electricians and plumbers who would argue vehemently to keep them and layout literally decades of them doing right by their members, and I immediately am suspect of the motives and upbringing of anyone who denounces them, especially since it is a common talking point on Fox Propaganda network, and the Kochs and Mercers spend millions fighting unions and they are literally evil.

John Corry @jcorry

Yeah, I think a healthy, robust, competitive economy will do more to lift the prospects of workers than mandated requirements would

Erik Olson @erkolson

that is fantasy man!

John Corry @jcorry

huh, it’s worked fantastic for me

Dan Nicodemo @danodemo

Yeah, that's a complete dream and exactly why we have labor laws.

John Corry @jcorry

¯\(ツ)

I was a union employee once…it wasn’t awesome

in fact, that was the worst job I think I’ve ever had

anyway…to each their own

Dan Nicodemo @danodemo

Probably would have been worse without a union.

John Corry @jcorry

yah that may be true

Erik Olson @erkolson

" a healthy, robust, competitive economy will do more to lift the prospects of workers than mandated requirements would"

Dan Nicodemo @danodemo

Steelworking absolutely sucks. Terrible, back-breaking work. And it used to be if a machine broke and killed you, it was YOUR fault and your family would have to pay for the machine to be fixed lol

Unions changed that.

Erik Olson @erkolson

allright, looks like my pot stirring is working, I gotta go get some stuff done now!

:slightly_smiling_face:

Dan Nicodemo @danodemo

Unions are critical for reducing child labor, as well. https://www.solidaritycenter.org/unions-play-a-key-role-in-eliminating-child-labor/

Weekends, which I'm sure you enjoy having. 8-hour workdays, which we all enjoy...those are from Unions, pushing sensible ideas and organizing the workers around issues they already all agreed with.

Do some Union leaders abuse the system? Of course. This is America. We have tons of greedy, selfish a-holes that ruin good stuff for the rest of us. That doesn't mean the underlying foundation isn't still solid.

It just means we have to be vigilant, and far less tolerant of corruption than we currently are.

Jerald Sheets @cvquesty

Let me, then, give my own personal anecdote. I used to live in Baton Rouge, home of the third largest refinery in the country. I was retained to deliver a computer and to do some training, mount a switch, and do some nominal things. I arrived at the gate with all my goods and was stopped by the gate guard for a union review. I was not allowed to carry in my bag of tools, as I was not a unionized operations engineer. I was not allowed to carry in the piece of wood I use to lay on (refinery floors can be filthy) because I was not a unionized carpenter, nor was I allows to PLUG IN THE DAMNED COMPUTER BECAUSE I WASN’T AN ELECTRICIAN. I left. I notified the customer that until they solved the completely ridiculous union stranglehold on their processes, I would not be able to help them any more. We got a special dispensation to come in and work, escorted by senior management which caused a labor dispute. THIS is what I don’t want to happen to IT.

Eugene Liu @eliu500

I think that’s what it boils down to… Unions have done good, corporations have done good. There are corrupt union leaders, there are corrupt corporate execs. What’s important is a way for members and employees to expose the negatives without repercussion, keep the “powers that be” in check

Dan Nicodemo @danodemo

I don't think IT is in a position to unionize outside of maybe like cable installers. The demand is so freaking high, it's really a worker's market.

Erik Olson @erkolson

Ever heard the phrase, "The business gets the union it deserves?"

And @cvquesty that sounds annoying, but how hard would it have been to let those folks do their jobs while you watched? They have decided that their workplace should work that way, who are you to tell them different?

Eugene Liu @eliu500

I remember listening to a podcast a few months ago about an interesting study… A research team found out that as local newspapers go out of business or get acquired by larger entities, local government corruption increased

IMO unions are a balance to corporate powers, but then within unions themselves there has to be check and balance to prevent union leaders from overreaching

Jerald Sheets @cvquesty

Well, I did tell them different, and it precipitated the state becoming an “at-will” state, and unions becoming nearly ineffective except for the most egregious offenses. This refinery was one of if not the highest-paying employers in the area at the time, and they’ve only thrived and continue to employ at high levels and better the economy in the area. Their biggest concerns now is the gov is trying to roll back their tax breaks, and it’s causing some issues now, but the workers have actually made out better, and there have not been any real labor disputes to speak of since. Trust me, Unions were absolutely needed to break the abuses of the industrial revolution era. Now, federal law mandates a lot of what they fought for.

OSHA, DWS, Federal regulation, state regulation, safety inspections, federal limits on hours allowed to work consecutively, prohibition from certain work without proper training, etc. The real potential areas for abuse there are now legally challengeable in a court of law.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

Wolvenhaven @wolvenhaven

so i have been leading several development teams doing a couple mobile apps, and our really good product people got cut, and we had 3 people shoved down our throats from the marketing department who are now leading product with no clue wtf they're doing, at all. Their whole contribution for the last few months(aside from arguing with me and not understanding anything i say) was to today, send out a survey they created to name my apps, and the 3 names they chose to let us vote on are "[Company name] Connect" "[Company name] On The Go" and "[Company name] Now" with short kitchy marketing lingo descriptions

Eugene Liu @eliu500

Wow that’s terrible. They didn’t even suggest “[Company name] Mobile”!!! :smile:

Stephen Harper @deltaedge

that's a lot of money and resources to spend to get something like that

i'm sure 15 years ago the suggestions would have been [Company Name] 360 or [Company Name] XP

Jim Walker @jhw.tlc

Just being a little contrarian here. If you name it one of those three, it is open for future web app, voice app, etc. A whole family of apps. If you name something "Mobile", it gets you locked in. On the bright side, naming stuff is what marketing does and while they concentrate on that, they don't have time to mess with you

Eugene Liu @eliu500

A few years ago it would’ve been “[Company Name].ly” or “Uber[Company Name]”

Wolvenhaven @wolvenhaven

so i went and looked, there is a "how to name a mobile app" search result in the first couple pages

that lists those 3 names for "portal apps"

the thing that annoys me is we didn't get asked at all, and it's an internal company app

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JR Rickerson @jrrickerson

sounds like an old job I had where marketing got heavily involved in our versioning scheme

We just finished 6.0 and so now we're working on 7.3. Then we're doing version 10! :confused:

Evan Seeds @evanseeds

We’re currently scrapping our 1.5 release since it’s all technical and not featureful so we can just put everything in the upcoming 3.0 release :upside_down_face:

Josh @joshuawheeler0

A lot easier to turn an interview down with how much the recruiter and the company is obsessing over programming. I have less than zero interest in learning how to program

Only class I hated more than math in college was programming. Fuck that. Don't know how programmers do it.

Zachary Sarver @zsarver

But math is fun and interesting...

Now I want to rant about people who hate math

nshttpd @nshttpd

But programming is fun and interesting...

Math is hard, so is naming things, invalidating cache and off by one errors.

falco @falco

Programming is conttrol and the thrill of the chase and thinking and all that stuff

and Pinterest is added to my sh*tlist because their instructions for how to report that you didn't sign up for them don't work, and they'll keep on spamming you even though you never validated the email address that you couldn't get removed from an account.

Up yours sideways, Pinterest

Josh @joshuawheeler0

I'm comfortable fucking with someone else's code if I can see errors in it and I kind of programmed when I dealt with Icinga

But Java and perl and that? Thats gonna be a no got me dawg

And icinga led to a lot of stress and lost sleep. Programmers are wired differently. Not for me

JR Rickerson @jrrickerson

@joshuawheeler0 friend of mine from college and I have been going over this back and forth for like 15 years now. About half of us are programmers and the other half are IT/Ops. I constantly talk about how much I hate ops and can't stand it when basically everything is some proprietary thing cooked up by a specific vendor, and they tell me I'm nuts for sitting there going over the minutiae of code day in and day out

Josh @joshuawheeler0

Your friends sound smart

I sat across from programmers at my last job and I just got stressed hearing them talk about finding what broke. Every other day.

Trish Smith @thetrishasmith

I was the IT person in college, with all the CS friends. Still is that way. I couldn’t do that daily, it would not vibe with how i work.

It seems so samey day after day

Josh @joshuawheeler0

They were programmers who were heavy into elasticsearch and since I managed the monitoring system and we had a number of ES clusters I had maybe three or four dozen alerts configured for how long indexing took or queuing took or whatever and boy when they fucked something up in ES we'dd suddenly get three or four dozen alerts and they the programmers freak out fixing the broken cluster

And most of the time it was something they fucked up with code or something.

We even had a "elasticsearch accident free" written on the board. Maybe made it double digit days twice

JR Rickerson @jrrickerson

That doesn't sound familiar at all.... :eyes:

I do find it amusing that there are such distinctive lines, and certain personalities seem drawn to one or the other, when both in essence require a very logical mindset with a strong eye for detail

If I'm being truly honest I'd say the people more drawn to programming are ones who have a bit of a control freak nature to them, and / or enjoy escaping into their own little universes

If I have some kind of IT related problem with even home networking equipment it drives me nuts that I can't just crack it open and follow the code until I find the problem and fix it, instead I usually have to depend on manuals, blogs, etc. for that specific version of the device from that specific vendor, cause none of them are 100% the same

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Erik Olson @erkolson
JR Rickerson @jrrickerson

to be fair, I imagine the pipeline of: sheltered life -> high tech college -> sheltered office life is probably not the BEST to lend up and coming folks a sense of perspective in the world.